Is Geoff Southern being shafted or throwing toys?

[fryertucker]

We know its being wasted and this is why we need to get spending knocked on the head once and for all.  I understand even some of the outside advisors employed by the States have warned against an impending bubble that could explode.

Its not taxing the rich, the middle class or the people that can least afford it.  It is a case of collecting reasonable tax and spending it wisely.

If we don't get spending under control, how long will it be before we see a £Billion Pound Budget?

[danrok]

You don't get much for a pound these days, so I can imagine the £1bn budget can't be far off!

[fryertucker]

Well if you look at the way its been going over the past 10 years we cannot be that far away from a Billion!

I am not saying that you envy people with money, but from some of Geoff Sothern's actual comments to the media and letters to the paper, it does hint in that direction from him. 

(I have to log off now as my wifey is starting to moan a bit (as they do) so catch you later!)

[boatyboy]

This thread has about five different issues all going on at the same time. May I input a couple of suggestions, firstly human nature.

Most human beings want to achieve, and it is evident in the young human to be competitive and successful. It may be football, it depends on which areas  your abilities lie and tuition received. Its part of most humans healthy nature.

Watch a line of five year olds racing a 50mts on sports day. They Know which of their friends will probably win, but they will still do their best because they want to.

The over achiever, who goes on to do well, not in businesses but as a professional, earning a very high salary. another issue.

An acquaintance of mine has worked with him on occasion and person just happens to be very gifted. He won most of the academic prizes at school, excelled at university,  and trained very hard for years to achieve being a high earner with using his talent and determination.

He is sort of married to his job does not go out much to meet ladies. Works for a very large organisation, earning serious money. His main joy and hobby is,  some of  you are going to love this, judging by the posts above. driving his bright red Ferrari, a newer model worth a lot of money. Probably purchase five large family cars with the money it cost.

The fact is, its been vandalised several times which naturally upsets him.

I can feel that maybe some of you reading this will think good, he's loaded, It really is his one and only pride and joy, well not really,  his main love is his job. A leading children’s heart specialist.

BB

[tonytheprof]

The Island has always been fueled by greed.  The fast buying and selling of property.  Capital gains incentives on various financial products.

Take a look at the Zero/Ten change on Schedule A.

20% - This is tax on schedule A - rental income, now to include property development gains on land in Jersey (i.e. if an outside Island company buys a property /land, develops it, and sells it, this profit will be taxed).

Who might that be targeted at? Some fine and dandy outside property developer?

[Malachi]

Someone on a (medical) consultant's salary (anything between just over six figures and a multiple of six figures depending on how much private work they do) driving around in a car with a six figure price tag doesn't really bother me that much; I'd like to have their job and their salary (or enough money so go back to university for several years and eventually do something similar/medical research or whatever, but I have to settle for relatively dull/low paid jobs like most people), but they can keep the car.

As for tax, it's possible that many of the people that use tax avoidance schemes/tools (keeping a large chunk of the Jersey population employed) would be less inclined to protect their assets if they knew that giving them to the or their govt. wouldn't result in gross waste. More taxes do not guarantee more security for all of us at all...

One of the arguments in favour of tax avoidance (which you can take or leave) is that people who are able to generate wealth/jobs are more likely to spend their wealth more efficiently than any government. Entrepreneurial or business addicted billionaire types can only spend a small fraction of their wealth on high living and fancy cars etc. every year (however obscene/self-indulgent that might be); they want to retain the bulk of it for funding new ventures (e.g. one of the Dragons from Dragon's Den expressing an interest in Woolworths). I'm not suggesting that they all saints, but many of them do seem to enjoy making money (which admittedly involves employing/exploiting people whose skills aren't worth that much, but twas always thus) instead of spending it.

As for Geoff...

I haven't spoken to him about anything of substance for a very long time (he taught at my school), but I've heard the most apalling things said about by my family and acquaintances etc. Disagree with his left-wing/socialist politics by all means, but is he really "untrustworthy" or "evil"? (and I am aware of all the rumours & gossip about his personal life and why he is not a teacher any more etc.)

I don't like Frank Walker at all; his parting speeches and interviews have been unbearably smug & self-congratulatory, but I would never suggest that he was "evil". A lot of people seem to have an irrational fear of Geoff Southern the person which seems to have more importance than their more rational fear of the political ideology/position that he has associated himself with.

[moot]

Communism was just another control mechanism like capitalism nothing more. The same type of people run both systems. Real communism would have a sharing society with each taking according to their means, however if you read animal farm by George Orwell, you will see how it was used by the few for personal gain just like capitalism! As you say the communism we witnessed needs to be consinded to the dustbin of history just like the present strain of capitalism.

You are absolutely right. In the late sixties I hitch hiked through all of the then communist Eastern European countries except Russia. I talked with and got drunk with students there. In 1968 I spent weeks with students in Prague while Alexander Dubcek tried to escape from Russia's iron grip by slowly introducing "socialism with a democratic face"  They could not understand that at that same time students were rioting in Paris with barricades etc demanding communism etc while they were trying to escape it. Dubcek failed as Russia wasn't having it and moved their tanks in
Later on I visited the same students what a truly sad state they were in. I walked through Check point Charlie into East Berlin and saw the misery there. Rumania with itsr extreme poverty. Almost got arrested by the Bularian KGB for talking to Bulgarians. (and changing money on the black market I admit ) I feel so pleased that I did all that as it gave me such a good insight into how communism doesn't work and am able to dispatch any dreams of young people who might think it could work. Last week I came back from spending two weeks in Cuba where I drove 900 miles. Again the same disfunctial society and extreme poverty and corruption everywhere.  50 years of revolution and so little to show for it !
Capitalism has its faults but these are nothing compared to those of communism
I spent some time in an Israeli kibbutz to see what it was like. This form of "communism" worked well to gain a foothold in Palestine and by "being together" they were protected. Castro's revolution should only have been used to get rid of Batista and his US mafia bosses but once that was done he should have introduced democracy. It could work well simply as a vehicle to get rid of dictators etc and then to establish democracy. Hope I am not talking rubbish - it is rather late !
Long live our freedom !

[Malachi]

Talking about ideal versions of communism is just a feeble way of avoiding the fact that it cannot work on any scale bigger than that of a family (most families are run on communist principles if you think about it) or a small community (if that).

In order to 'work' on a bigger/national scale, you have to have coercion = abuses of human rights & freedoms that communist states are infamous for.

[danrok]

Danrok I don't care what anyone earns and can anyone really earn billions of dollars? They only get this through help from others, no one gets it from the sweet of their own brow!

Bill Gates has admitted this sort of wealth should not be controlled by one person that is why he is giving all his away over time. If the richest person or very nearly the richest person on the planet realises this there is hope for us.

So, Bill Gates is going to give his money away before he dies.  And the other option was what?  There is no ATM on the other side!

This is a guy who's organisation indulges in tax avoidance.  Microsoft paid little tax, meaning others had to contribute more.  What a guy!  Don't you just love him?

Then we have the anti-competitive behaviour of Microsoft, a company which trampled all over the small guy trying to earn a living, not caring that it was breaking the law.  These guys are just common criminals, found guilty, and fined huge sums of money.

If Microsoft were Tescos, they wouldn't simply undercut the small corner shop, they would give food away for free until all their small competitors were gone, then overcharge like crazy.

Their products are duff anyhow, Vista was a major failure.  It's no co-incidence that Bill has retired just as MS is staring into an abyss.  They'll be nothing but a bad memory 10 years from now.

What hope is there, if we look to Bill Gates types to save the world?

[moot]

Talking about ideal versions of communism is just a feeble way of avoiding the fact that it cannot work on any scale bigger than that of a family (most families are run on communist principles if you think about it) or a small community (if that).
In order to 'work' on a bigger/national scale, you have to have coercion = abuses of human rights & freedoms that communist states are infamous for.

I like the way your bring the family unit in as I had never thought ot that !
Talking about abuse of human rights and freedom. In Cuba Castro makes his people believe, even now, that they have been "liberated" by placing large billboards along the awful roads with the words Libertad = Freedom. By whipping up animosity against the US many actually believe they are free and still support the revolution. Contrary to beliefs Cubans are allowed to leave but they need a visa for most countries which is difficult and with monthly salaries of between £10 and £15 they are imprisoned with their ration books for food and clothing. Luckily they have their incredible music

[danrok]

Communal living, and communism, the only flaw with the family example, is that young children don't get it!

The arrival of children at a new kibbutz inevitably posed an ethical dilemma. If everything was held in common, then who was in charge of the children? This question was answered by regarding the children as belonging to all, even to the point of kibbutz mothers breastfeeding babies which were not their own. For most kibbutzim, the arrival of children was a sobering experience: "When we saw our first children in the playpen, hitting one another, or grabbing toys just for themselves, we were overcome with anxiety. What did it mean that even an education in communal life couldn't uproot these egotistical tendencies? The utopia of our initial social conception was slowly, slowly destroyed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz#Communal_life

[fryertucker]

Geoff Southern is like a fish out of water with his version of political thinking in Jersey.  He may have got further if he had tried to be friendlier with others in the cabinet.  I think some right wingers agree with some of his thoughts, but because it is him presenting them they get ignored.  (Just a thought).

[tonytheprof]

Geoff Southern is like a fish out of water with his version of political thinking in Jersey.  He may have got further if he had tried to be friendlier with others in the cabinet.  I think some right wingers agree with some of his thoughts, but because it is him presenting them they get ignored.  (Just a thought).

I remember emailling Geoff in 2005, and telling him that his platform of no GST wouldn't wash with the voters, and he should go strongly for GST with exemptions (like Jacqui Hilton did). He said that his mind was made up, and he couldn't change it!

What I think the upset is for Geoff is that the JDA did extremely well in the elections, got a lot of coverage, Geoff was interviewed on CTV and BBC afterwards, but then he was brought down to earth with a big bumb, because the TV limelight and adulation didn't equate to how much power the JDA actually had in the States.

[moot]

I believe that what others call communism would work if people were not inherently greedy and selfish, this is why it fails.

You've said it all in one !

[boatyboy]

There are exceptions to the greed culture, on all levels displayed by people.

Tetras you said earlier some on benefits milk the system, as do some rich capitalists, I think no system is perfect, and I agree on that point.

What disturbs me more is our council of ministers in charge of OUR money blowing  £12 million on luxury travel and accommodation over three years. We have no choice in paying our taxes, unlike them wasting our hard earned money.

The human being is a complicated creature in many ways. I believe you do the best with what you have in all skills and situation. I do agree  that it is bonkers that some people have say half a billion pounds in the bank and others have very little, and they both work and contribute.

What I object to is the big brush that you use to tar every person who is wealthy with. I really Hope Mr Kirsch is not reading your lines.

To quote you,

capitalism in my opinion is bad because it is driven by greed which in turn leads to deceit etc. How can conning people to get one over them in a business deal be regarded as good business practice?

A friend of mine started as an electrician, decades ago, worked hard all his life and told me how when he left his old boss to start on his own, his family friends and neighbours, all found small jobs for him and wished him success.

Forty years on when he owns several properties, has four cars, just about everyone except his mother, (dads gone) is jealous and bitter towards him. He does not con people he gets repeat work, much of it through word of mouth.  Here is the good news, he offered the business to the four trusted tradesman that worked for him for years.

They answer, NO we don’t want to mortgage our houses and that paperwork and strange aggressive customers moaning., and also 38 hours a week is plenty enough. His son is not interested in taking on the business. I have nothing but respect for him, no bad feelings at all.
 
I have given a lot of thought over the years  regarding the work harder earn more, reward culture that we live in. To  put it another way, how are you going to get people to work hard, without there being a benefit for them.

How are you going to reward those that want to work all out, to run their own business without better incentives than working for a company ?. How are you going to get kids to go to University and obtain higher grades ?, if they are clever enough?, when they can see no added advantage.

I haven’t sadly thought of  a better system yet, if I did ? I bet there would be those who would opt out to follow their own road, or others who simply could not be bothered, its the nature of the animal !

boatyboy