Author Topic: Vote of No Confidence in our Chief Minister.  (Read 4102 times)

AHITS

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Re: Vote of No Confidence in our Chief Minister.
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2008, 11:59:55 AM »
I also suggest a boycott of the JEP with immediate effect! This Walker/States/Establishment rag is only useful for lighting your fire at home or checking the hatched/matched/dispatched bit at the back. Why anyone would purchase this utter trash is beyond me. Have you noticed how few letters re the last weeks terrible news have been printed. They must have had bucket loads, just check out the 'Have your say' section of the BBC Jersey website to see how many have voiced their opinions! Yet we have been treated to pages of former residents of care homes telling us how wonderful it all was >:(

Much as you consider "rallies" to be ineffective, I consider the same of boycotting the JEP with immediate effect.

I'm all for a JEP boycott - a drop in sales is the only thing guaranteed to make the owners take notice of the public's disgust with their bias toward Walker and their complete lack of investigative journalism - but it needs to be a focused boycott, with clear reasons given for the boycott.

It's no good saying "stop buying the JEP now!" because that ain't gonna happen. People are too habitual for one thing. I would suggest that anyone who buys the paper on a nightly basis sets one day a week aside as a 'JEP-free' day. I'm going to be trying to drum up some interest in this on my blog soon - and I'm going to suggest that a Wednesday is probably the best day for a weekly boycott.

If such a campaign could be tied in with the rally or demo (or whatever you wish to call it), it would serve to increase the gravitas of both elements.   
« Last Edit: March 02, 2008, 12:03:00 PM by AHITS »

Offline Deputy Dawg

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Re: Vote of No Confidence in our Chief Minister.
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2008, 12:12:34 PM »
I'm going to be trying to drum up some interest in this on my blog soon - and I'm going to suggest that a Wednesday is probably the best day for a weekly boycott.

I have to agree. A "lets not buy the JEP today" will only remove sales from the paper for that day, whereas a JEP free day on say wednesday (but probably better on Thursday as that is the biggest advertising revenue day) will give advertisers time to realise that fewer sales are being made on that day and cancel their advertising for that day, thus hitting them with two lots of lost revenue for one day a week.

1cheesey

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Re: Vote of No Confidence in our Chief Minister.
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2008, 12:27:45 PM »
Yup, I see were you're coming from guys. I suppose it would be very difficult for many dyed in the wool types to stop themselves from buying it. What is needed as well is a credible altenative. I wonder how many JEP journos would dearly love to have free reign particularly at a time like this? Funding for such a publication would be difficult over here. I can't imagine any of the established Jersey businesses wanting to advertise in such a publication!

Time for a huge win on the Euro Millions I feel :D

AHITS

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Re: Vote of No Confidence in our Chief Minister.
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2008, 12:31:10 PM »
(but probably better on Thursday as that is the biggest advertising revenue day)

Interesting, why is that?


AHITS

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Re: Vote of No Confidence in our Chief Minister.
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2008, 12:32:46 PM »
Yup, I see were you're coming from guys. I suppose it would be very difficult for many dyed in the wool types to stop themselves from buying it.

This is why I'm suggesting just one day a week - it's the easiest way to break the habit. No 'cold turkey' to put people off before they get started.

Offline en830

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Re: Vote of No Confidence in our Chief Minister.
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2008, 12:46:55 PM »
Walker declined to be interviewed for the Politics show this lunchtime. I wonder if he has learnt his lesson ?
You can't get good chinese takeout in China and cuban cigars are rationed in Cuba. That's all you need to know about communism

Offline Deputy Dawg

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Re: Vote of No Confidence in our Chief Minister.
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2008, 01:03:08 PM »
(but probably better on Thursday as that is the biggest advertising revenue day)

Interesting, why is that?

I believe the car retailers and property people use Thursday as their "main" day and a lot of others buy due to that as they surmise that there will be more people buying the paper on that day. Should be easy enough to check, there will only be one day when you will see "pages" of cars or property for sale.

AHITS

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Re: Vote of No Confidence in our Chief Minister.
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2008, 01:24:00 PM »
I highly doubt he's learnt any lesson, as we'll probably see when he next crawls out from under his stone.

I'd say he's lying low purely to protect his own already battered hide.

Offline en830

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Re: Vote of No Confidence in our Chief Minister.
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2008, 01:32:47 PM »
I don't buy the paper as a rule, in fact I don't buy any papers.

Anyhow I think what you are advocating is Blackmail to a certain extent. It's very hard for a local paper to write in a neutral manner and not appear to take one side or another. If it did we would then be claiming that the government is being run by media moguls as happens in the UK. I guess with the JEP it's history doesn't help it as Walker was it's majority shareholder until quite recently and is still perceived to have some strong influences in its editorial content.

However I also note that they gave a two page spread to Stuart Syvret last night and very few have commented on that here. I guess that there are people in Jersey society this morning saying that by giving Syvret a two page platform the JEP is anti establishment. Basically damned if they do damned if they don't.

I must admit going back a few years, I had a conversation with the editor about the accusations of wife beating be levied at Walker at that time. He jumped to Walkers defence and claimed that going by what he knew about the then Mrs Walker, the idea of her being beaten was preposterous. Maybe he was protecting his position, I'll never know.
You can't get good chinese takeout in China and cuban cigars are rationed in Cuba. That's all you need to know about communism

AHITS

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Re: Vote of No Confidence in our Chief Minister.
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2008, 01:36:26 PM »
What is needed as well is a credible altenative. I wonder how many JEP journos would dearly love to have free reign particularly at a time like this? Funding for such a publication would be difficult over here. I can't imagine any of the established Jersey businesses wanting to advertise in such a publication!

Time for a huge win on the Euro Millions I feel :D

I would think the main stumbling block would be the owners of the only newspaper printing press on the island.....

But....we're in the 21st century now. So there's nothing to stop anyone launching an online alternative. I'm sure if there were any disaffected journalists at the JEP, we'd be seeing the fruits of that disenchantment spread across various blogs or forums. The fact that we aren't would suggest they're all quite happy to trundle along in an inoffensive manner.

Offline jez strickland

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Re: Vote of No Confidence in our Chief Minister.
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2008, 01:50:19 PM »

However I also note that they gave a two page spread to Stuart Syvret last night and very few have commented on that here. I guess that there are people in Jersey society this morning saying that by giving Syvret a two page platform the JEP is anti establishment. Basically damned if they do damned if they don't.

Not forgetting Anna Plunkett-Cole's column on page 11 likening Walker's press conference to a 'head-on car crash'


AHITS

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Re: Vote of No Confidence in our Chief Minister.
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2008, 02:10:23 PM »
I don't buy the paper as a rule, in fact I don't buy any papers.

Anyhow I think what you are advocating is Blackmail to a certain extent. It's very hard for a local paper to write in a neutral manner and not appear to take one side or another. If it did we would then be claiming that the government is being run by media moguls as happens in the UK. I guess with the JEP it's history doesn't help it as Walker was it's majority shareholder until quite recently and is still perceived to have some strong influences in its editorial content.

However I also note that they gave a two page spread to Stuart Syvret last night and very few have commented on that here. I guess that there are people in Jersey society this morning saying that by giving Syvret a two page platform the JEP is anti establishment. Basically damned if they do damned if they don't.


Making people aware of the facts, and then suggesting they exercise their rights as consumers on the basis of those facts, isn't blackmail. It's creating informed choice.

Of course there's going to be an element of bias in any newspaper. But what we have seen with the JEP this week has been very disturbing. We're not just talking about a gentle case of bias. Take the Newsnight transcript for example. They printed an edited version, then gave Frank Walker space to comment and complain - with the edited version serving to back up his claim of injustice. However, they removed the one section of the interview which would have rendered his angle of complaint worthless and proven Paxman's attack to be completely justified.

Also, as I've previously mentioned elsewhere, the JEP were quick to make an issue out of Paxman misquoting Walker, but completely failed to point out that the actual phrase Walker used was equally as damaging and inappropriate as the misquote.

When a newspaper starts behaving like that, some might say that things start to look rather unethical, and the consumer has a right - nay, a duty - to protest.... especially when a newspaper acting in that fashion has a monopoly.

I don't understand why you think a newspaper run by media moguls would automatically be one that had any control over our government. And even if they did, on a small island like this they wouldn't last for long once the people realised, because ultimately the people can control the newspaper at any time, by withdrawing their financial support. In comparison,  aside from one voting day every few years, the people have no such immediate element of control over politicians.

I think you're understating the size of the problem somewhat when you mention it doesn't help that Walker was a major shareholder of the paper. For over 30 years he controlled the island's newspaper monopoly. For 15 of those he was a serving politician. That is such an extreme conflict of interest, that it shouldn't have been allowed. Can you imagine a similar situation in any other democracy?   It just doesn't happen. There'd be a national outcry if it turned out tomorrow that one of Gordon Brown's cabinet controlled every single newspaper in the UK.

The Syvret spread? I actually don't think it's worthy of any praise on the part of the JEP. Why not? Because throughout the week that same paper have been spinning articles and editorials to make Syvret look like a problem and Walker look like a victim. It's become such a visibly unbalanced state of affairs that it's probably safe to say they had no choice but to offer this interview, to sustain some image of being an unbiased organ.

The JEP deserve no sympathy, the seeds of any public discontent have been sown entirely by the paper's own hand.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2008, 02:49:43 PM by AHITS »

Offline en830

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Re: Vote of No Confidence in our Chief Minister.
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2008, 03:17:12 PM »
Making people aware of the facts, and then suggesting they exercise their rights as consumers on the basis of those facts, isn't blackmail. It's creating informed choice.
Facts as you see them, not necessarily as the paper doe's or many members of the population (i.e post 13 above). 

Of course there's going to be an element of bias in any newspaper. But what we have seen with the JEP this week has been very disturbing. We're not just talking about a gentle case of bias. Take the Newsnight transcript for example. They printed an edited version, then gave Frank Walker space to comment and complain - with the edited version serving to back up his claim of injustice. However, they removed the one section of the interview which would have rendered his angle of complaint worthless, and proven Paxman's attack to be completely justified. Also, as I've previously mentioned elsewhere, the JEP were quick to make an issue out of Paxman misquoting Walker, but completely failed to point out that the actual phrase Walker used was equally as damaging and inappropriate as the misquote.

I would take issue with Paxmans interview, in was a case of bad journalism and research. It was also a good example of ineptitude on behalf of Walker and showed him up to be the fraud that he is and well out of his depth when it comes to dealing with hardarse questioning. I concede that Syvret came out on top from that interview, but I would question his judgement by turning the whole affair into a media scrum. I note that since his revelations last Tuesday he has now accepted that he has no hard evidence of a Gov't level cover up, which has been backed up by Lenny Harper who is in possession of Syvret's dossier.

When a newspaper starts behaving like that, some might say that things start to look rather unethical, and the consumer has a right - nay, a duty - to protest.... especially when a newspaper acting in that fashion has a monopoly.


I refer you back to post 13 again, this is your view not necessarily shared by everyone.

I don't understand why you think a newspaper run by media moguls would automatically be one that had any control over our government. And even if they did, on a small island like this they wouldn't last for long once the people realised, because ultimately the people can control the newspaper at any time, by withdrawing their financial support. In comparison,  aside from one voting day every few years, the people have no such immediate element of control over politicians.


So you think the political leanings of Murdoch's newspaper empire has no effect on how people think/vote, you've basically claimed the same for the JEP and Walkers influence over it.

I think you're understating the size of the problem somewhat when you mention it doesn't help that Walker was a major shareholder of the paper. For over 30 years he controlled the island's newspaper monopoly. For 15 of those he was a serving politician. That is such an extreme conflict of interest, that it shouldn't have been allowed. Can you imagine a similar situation in any other democracy?   It just doesn't happen. There'd be a national outcry if it turned out tomorrow that one of Gordon Brown's cabinet controlled every single newspaper in the UK.


I have no doubt political influence is exercised in all democracies towards all levels of business and the media, as is canvassing by business/media of politically influential persons. Politicians need the media as much as  the media need politicians, what else would they have to report if they didn't. I don't disagree that it was (is) not a suitable position to the have the top politician in the island with so much perceived influence over the local newspaper. However how many islanders read the JEP in full compared to those who listen to or watch the BBC or the Commercial stations. I've seen it mentioned on this very website that he has some influence over those as well, are you going to advocate boycotting them as well ?

The Syvret spread? I actually don't think it's worthy of any praise on the part of the JEP. Why not? Because throughout the week that same paper have been spinning articles and editorials to make Syvret look like a problem and Walker look like a victim. It's become such a visibly unbalanced state of affairs that it's probably safe to say they had no choice but to offer this interview, to sustain some image of being an unbiased organ.

It will be interesting to see if Syvret takes issue with the JEP over the article and makes any claims of mis-representation. He obviously rates the paper still high enough to give them an interview.

The JEP deserve no sympathy, the seeds of any public discontent have been sown entirely by the paper's own hand.


I have no sympathy for the JEP, as I have said I don't invest in a newspaper at all. The public discontent has been sown by the politicians, no matter what positives the paper has printed this week, Walkers rating has plummeted past the negative. Hopefully we won't have to put up with Ratimole and Toad of Toad hall for much longer.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2008, 03:18:48 PM by en830 »
You can't get good chinese takeout in China and cuban cigars are rationed in Cuba. That's all you need to know about communism

AHITS

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Re: Vote of No Confidence in our Chief Minister.
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2008, 04:04:53 PM »
Facts as you see them, not necessarily as the paper doe's or many members of the population (i.e post 13 above). 

I would take issue with Paxmans interview, in was a case of bad journalism and research. It was also a good example of ineptitude on behalf of Walker and showed him up to be the fraud that he is and well out of his depth when it comes to dealing with hardarse questioning. I concede that Syvret came out on top from that interview, but I would question his judgement by turning the whole affair into a media scrum. I note that since his revelations last Tuesday he has now accepted that he has no hard evidence of a Gov't level cover up, which has been backed up by Lenny Harper who is in possession of Syvret's dossier.
 

I refer you back to post 13 again, this is your view not necessarily shared by everyone.
 

So you think the political leanings of Murdoch's newspaper empire has no effect on how people think/vote, you've basically claimed the same for the JEP and Walkers influence over it.
 

I have no doubt political influence is exercised in all democracies towards all levels of business and the media, as is canvassing by business/media of politically influential persons. Politicians need the media as much as  the media need politicians, what else would they have to report if they didn't. I don't disagree that it was (is) not a suitable position to the have the top politician in the island with so much perceived influence over the local newspaper. However how many islanders read the JEP in full compared to those who listen to or watch the BBC or the Commercial stations. I've seen it mentioned on this very website that he has some influence over those as well, are you going to advocate boycotting them as well ?

It will be interesting to see if Syvret takes issue with the JEP over the article and makes any claims of mis-representation. He obviously rates the paper still high enough to give them an interview.
 

I have no sympathy for the JEP, as I have said I don't invest in a newspaper at all. The public discontent has been sown by the politicians, no matter what positives the paper has printed this week, Walkers rating has plummeted past the negative. Hopefully we won't have to put up with Ratimole and Toad of Toad hall for much longer.


Man, I hate it when people cut and post mutliple sections.....so I won't be doing it in return.

Facts as I see them? Please explain further, because at the moment it looks like you're attempting to use some form of cod psychology to give others the impression that my facts are less factual than actual facts. Fact?

Whether you consider Paxman's journalism 'bad' or not, is irrelevant. The issue is that our local media completely overlooked that Walker's actual quote was contexually as inappropriate - and revealing - as the misquote.

Am I going to advocate boycotting BBC or commercial TV stations? Hmmmm. Do I really need to explain to you the obvious problem with boycotting a TV station to instigate change, or are you trying to appear too smart for your own good?

I didn't claim the Murdoch empire has no influence on votes, so please don't put words into my mouth - and  please don't attempt to take me to task for comments you imagine I have made.

And of course the view isn't shared by everyone that when a monopoly news source shows bias and manipulation of facts that it's acting unethically. But if you read the paragraph in question correctly, you'd see I never claimed it was. The phrase "Some might say" seems to have flown over your head.

And it has to be said, it's pointless to throw comments into a conversation such as "I refer you back to post 13 again, this is your view not necessarily shared by everyone". You may consider such a line to hold a certain value or gravitas, but unless the comment you refer to stated "everyone in the world shares this view", it's a completely (and laughably) worthless thing to say. It's also stating the blindingly obvious - there is not one comment made anywhere on this forum by anyone that "everyone" would be in agreement with. 

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to waste any more of my time addressing the few points left. Your argument largely seems to consist of misinterpretations, misquotes, misdirection and pointless belligerence. I've already given you more time than you deserve.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2008, 04:07:31 PM by AHITS »

Offline en830

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Re: Vote of No Confidence in our Chief Minister.
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2008, 04:08:10 PM »
I've already given you more time than you deserve.

Thank you, that's that then.
You can't get good chinese takeout in China and cuban cigars are rationed in Cuba. That's all you need to know about communism