Author Topic: Faith Schools  (Read 949 times)

Offline tonytheprof

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Faith Schools
« on: August 11, 2010, 07:41:19 PM »
"UK diginet More4 is lining up series of programmes from renowned atheist author Richard Dawkins, with a documentary about faith schools as the centrepiece.  Faith Schools Menace? (1x60') is being produced by Barnes Hassid Productions and will air on August 18. The doc is pitched as a "passionately argued" polemic, in which Dawkins - who penned bestseller The God Delusion - calls on viewers to reconsider the consequences of faith education which, he argues, indoctrinates children. The UK has around 7,000 publicly funded schools with a religious affiliation."

What do you think about "faith schools" in Jersey?

What restrictions do local faith schools place on parents and children?

Where would the States find the money for the extra education if the "faith schools" didn't exist?

Is it fair to criticise "faith schools", but retain "class schools" like Victoria College which are also subsidised?

Anyone up for a discussion?

Offline Dylan

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Re: Faith Schools
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2010, 07:46:31 PM »
"UK diginet More4 is lining up series of programmes from renowned atheist author Richard Dawkins, with a documentary about faith schools as the centrepiece.  Faith Schools Menace? (1x60') is being produced by Barnes Hassid Productions and will air on August 18. The doc is pitched as a "passionately argued" polemic, in which Dawkins - who penned bestseller The God Delusion - calls on viewers to reconsider the consequences of faith education which, he argues, indoctrinates children. The UK has around 7,000 publicly funded schools with a religious affiliation."

What do you think about "faith schools" in Jersey?

What restrictions do local faith schools place on parents and children?

Where would the States find the money for the extra education if the "faith schools" didn't exist?

Is it fair to criticise "faith schools", but retain "class schools" like Victoria College which are also subsidised?

Anyone up for a discussion?

What about "Classy faith " scools?
!dereggub si draobyek ym kniht I

Offline tonytheprof

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Re: Faith Schools
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2010, 07:55:18 PM »
Winchester School in England? nothing really the same over here!

You did make me laugh though!

Offline man in the street

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Re: Faith Schools
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2010, 09:50:18 PM »
most of the schools in jersey were started by priests and nuns, any fee paying school should stand on its own two feet.

Offline Rob Kent

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Re: Faith Schools
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2010, 11:08:58 PM »
I think that 'faith schools' are bad per se and should be strongly discouraged, certainly not supported through the public purse.

Amartya Sen wrote an interesting book called "Identity and Violence". In it he said that Britain does not have multi-culturalism - it has plural mono-culturism. Faith schools make the situation worse.


Offline tonytheprof

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Re: Faith Schools
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2010, 11:11:44 PM »
But if it couldn't and had to close, then rather than just applying a subsidy based on student numbers, the States would have to have more Island schools built or expanded, and employ more teachers? So the taxpayer would end up paying more - by taking students out of the States system, the education budget is smaller than it would be.

Do you want more expenditure and more taxes? That's the economic decision.

The other is on what filter is applied to children going to faith schools. I know that De La Salle certainly accepts students who are not Catholics. Two of my cousins went to De La Salle, and one remained CofE, and I don't know if the other has any particular belief; they certainly were not "indoctrinated" into being Catholics.

But do they have to belong to any other church, or no church at all? (or are children of neopagans, like druids and wiccans - and there are some in Jersey, good and friendly folk, - also welcome?)

Or is there a ratio of non-Catholics they must take in?

I don't know what the score is on that one.

Offline Calimachon

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Re: Faith Schools
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2010, 05:29:26 PM »
Hmm Faith Schools or not?

I have had the pleasure of attending both types of school:  Completely States funded, leaning towards C of E, they still taught religion then; A private school with a leaning to C of E and then a Convent.

The completely States' funded Primary I attended was perfect in education and the way that it was run and a very pleasant school (This was on the East of the island.) If you showed willing and worked hard you were rewarded.  It was a very happy school which seemed to be run by a happy team.  The catchment area was urban and the community around it seemed to be caring, commmunity spirited and pleasant.

The completely States' funded Secondary School was a 'B' nightmare, really awful, maybe it was because of the catchment area. (Also on the East of the island.).  Mainly a country, farming area.  Only one teacher stood out above the rest as being polite and respectful and therefore commanded respect himself.  The other staff seemed to have a big problem  (with one another) which is, maybe, why they totally forgot why they were in their posts, which was to teach children and give an example to children.  The pastoral care was bad.  They did have a few areas of their catchment that contained alleged problem families and a childcare home.  It was a relief to get out of that school, especially the antics of the unruly colleagues in the playground which was often left without official supervision.

The Private C of E School was a welcome relief from the above.  The emphasis was on attaining high qualifications to go on to a boarding school and there was a very big emphasis on manners and how one was expected to behave.  I spent a few pleasant years there.

The Convent was a total disaster.  (Parents probably moved me because of a hike in fees sadly). The emphasis was on religion and feast days with eternal meetings in the Chapel.  Totally boring.  The emphasis was on doing good but there was a bit of misbehaviour, you know what they say about idle hands.  The education was minimal and I believe sub-standard.  Several friends went on to do well and when I asked how they managed it they said their parents paid for extra tuition when they left so they could get the required grades in what were then very hard to get A levels.

I was happy with my lot I would never have achieved high grades anyway without a lot of help!

It was strange though.  All of the secondary schools had a kind of respect for one another, although they absolutely knew that their own religion was the one to follow and we felt sorry for the rest of the fools following a false Prohet/God.  That I felt from both sides LOL.

"How we wonder, how we wonder - Watching for the Lord".

My summary is:

Education to a good standard with instruction on how to love your fellow man in the true unadulterated context of the word love is the answer, in my humble opinion. 

If this were to be achieved it would be the end of all blogs and forums ending in flames and desperation.

Cali :)
"Life gives to all the choice. You can satisfy yourself with mediocrity if you wish. You can be common, ordinary, dull, colorless, or you can channel your life so that it will be clean,vibrant, progressive, useful, colorful, rich". Spencer W. Kimball (Calimachon is not a Mormon nor is she in any shape or form religious but she thinks this applies to all humans and more so to a Humanist!  :)

Offline tonytheprof

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Re: Faith Schools
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2010, 06:53:50 PM »
Private schools with leanings to CofE have changed over the years. At Victoria College, for example, there was up to the early 1970s, a chaplain teaching RE, confirmation Classes at the school, and a special confirmation service in the Great Hall from time to time. This changed considerably in the 1970s when the chaplain retired, and RE was taken on by teachers who had usually Anglican leanings, and the assemblies changed in tone from CofE hymns (largely Victorian), prayers, lessons to generally more secular style.

I've noticed that the one religious school event still present in private and States schools, the carol service, tends to have its venue depend upon the head teacher. Under Robert Cook (a Catholic), for example, it moved to St Thomas Church from the Town Church. Likewise at Rouge Bouillion, under Wendy Hurford it was at St Thomas, under her successor, it moved to Wesley Grove Methodist.

I'd be curious to know if the selection process in both states schools and private schools (apart from the Catholic ones) involves any necessity to have religious belief of any kind, either explicitly, or implicitly - i.e., non-Christian teachers just don't get selected. I'd thought it unlikely that was explicit, but I'm not convinced there might not be a hidden bias there.

Does anyone know any firm agnostics, atheists who are head teachers? I wouldn't have thought it impossible; after all, Richard Dawkins, despite his atheist convictions, enjoys carol services.


rogueelement

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Re: Faith Schools
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2010, 09:47:42 AM »
I went to Victoria College , as a Catholic , and was excused morning assembly so that I did not have to associate with the heretics , giving me 30 minutes in the morning to knock out my homework.This was ruined by some muppet deciding that we could all share scriptures in the morning.
My Children have all gone to either DeLa Salle or Beaulieu and none of them appear to have been afflicted with any serious religious indoctrination.Only in the case of my daughter was her religion called into question as a prequisite to entry to beaulieu ,but even though she is/was Cof E there was no problem ultimately.
As regards to the comment "fee paying schools should stand on their own two feet" , great , excellent comment , and supposing they cannot afford it?Supposing as someone else said ,that such schools closed through lack of funds , the States would have to provide the education for another 2000 children. I suppose you could then say that those who choose such schools should pay more , entirely forgetting that many of us paid fees for 2 or three children at a time, at a personal cost to ourselves and that we went without in order to provide a good education for our children and that was our choice.Whilst some people were buying cars or having expensive holidays at the cost of their childrens education we were struggling along. I claim the moral high ground here!
As for those who could afford neither private education or expensive cars and holidays , well thats life , hopefully you did the best you could and your children will be better placed to move on in life and do better for their own children.
With regard to States funding of Private schools ,I recall that until very recently VC received far more from the States than DeLa Salle ever did , which was quite a bone of contention. I believe this has been partially resolved but I still believe VC ,because of its historical buildings receives more than its fair share of the kitty.

Offline Dylan

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Re: Faith Schools
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2010, 10:15:26 AM »
I went to a Private Jesuit run boarding school in the West country, although we are Cof E protestant, in order to "get out" of Chapel evry single morning my bro & I said we were Jewish and one day of atonement was sufficient, we spent every morning reading the newspapers in the library. I do not wish to offend anyone by this trite admission but early on in life I did find that "religion" has its advantages as well.
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Offline Rob Kent

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Re: Faith Schools
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2010, 06:14:34 AM »
I don't think the comments above are actually addressing faith schools in the UK. They are talking about what are traditionally called 'Church schools', which arose when Britain was a single-faith society.

In the early 1990s, around the time that Prince Charles visited a Hindu temple and changed his designation from 'guardian of the faith' to 'guardian of faiths' it became obvious that it was discriminatory to provide state aid in the form of money to schools of one faith alone (Christian, disregarding the various flavours).

To rectify this anomaly Tony Blair introduced the faith school legislation which opened up funding to any faith, based on certain conditions about not rejecting people of other faiths, etc. He could have done what France and other countries have done and made state education completely secular, without stopping churches providing their own schools out of their own pocket if they wanted to.

The first problem with faith schools is how you define faith, and what is the difference between a cult and a religion: is it just the number of followers and the amount of real estate they own? Scientology is officially a religion and has charitable tax status. David Icke and his followers could easily call themselves a religious faith: their central tenet that the earth is run by shape-shifting lizard people is no stranger than Scientology's and, objectively, no weirder than the story of a being with wings flying down from heaven to impregnate a virgin with the son of god. So who do you preclude from opening a faith school without appearing to be arbitrarily discriminatory?

But the main problem is that they are socially divisive - and this has happened in practice, it is not theoretical. Although they are required by law to be open to all faiths, in practice, all the faith schools have become almost totally attended by children of one faith. This leads to social segregation, misunderstandings between communities, and an inability for people of different groups to understand each others beliefs. Not least, you find the phenomena of 'othering', where social groups really believe the members of the other group to be less than human, and therefore useful scape-goats in times of social crisis. This is happening between orthodox Jews and Muslims in London, not to say the middle-east.

It was once fashionable to bemoan Britain's multiculturalism, but in fact, what you have is plural mono-culturalism, with lots of isolated communities that never mix. Faith schools aggravate this problem. You can find a good analysis of it in Amartya Sen's "Identity and Violence".

It's good to understand that Jersey has not become a multi-cultural society in the sense that the rest of Britain has. If you had a 7% Muslim population and 3% Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Bahai, etc, and their schools were being funded by the States, it would be different to just talking about subsidies for De La Salle and Beaulieu.

What Blair should have done is ended state support for religious schools, and slowly reduced the subsidy for CofE schools over a decade until they were self-supporting or closed. Since they were up to 90% tax-payer funded anyway, it would make no difference that their pupils were now fully in the state sector.

And the other miscomparison is to ignore the fact that we are living through a period of religious fundamentalism - it is not the slightly bland version of Christianity previously on the menu, which as one commenter noted, did not result in the indoctrination of children, whose parents were not devoutly religious in the first place. Creationism anyone?